This submission has an egregiously editorialized title, which is against the site guidelines for good reason:

"Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize."

As a result, we got a tedious, dumbed-down, inflammatory and supercilious discussion. Just what we don't want here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I couldn't write a coherent sentence until I was 24 years old. A couple years after high school I discovered reading starting with "Cannery Row" however it still took significant effort to learn to write despite thousands of hours of reading. Once I understood the basic mechanics of grammar, fitting words into meaningful structures became second nature. I still can't spell the word coherent without assistance from a spell checker, nevertheless, I write and communicate the meaning I intend to convey.

People are hostile when I say there isn't such a thing as a learning disability but rather only teaching disabilities. Sure teachers especially in public schools are over worked, however, what happened to me is abuse. It was always I who failed and never the teachers or my parents who strangely both have PhDs. The onus to understand how to learn was the responsibility of a child and not the adults. We expect children who fail to understand pedagogy? They told me to think harder, to work harder. What does it mean to think harder? I suffered anxiety attacks and mental breakdowns trying to keep up. They ushered me along through graduation because I never had antisocial behavioral problems.

I taught myself a trade so I could survive. Then taught myself how to write. Then taught myself a second trade for fun and a third. At some point, I'll change my focus to educational software. There have been several individuals, groups, and initiatives over the past few decades since I graduated who have developed amazing tools I wish existed when I was in school with the Khan Academy at the top of that list. Nonetheless, the people at the Khan Academy who designed their course on grammar also happen to be people who are naturally talented at grammar, the fundamental crux teaching. I have one paradoxical advantage: my disadvantage which plagues every working moment gives me a perspective nobody has, er, correction, 46% of people who also happen to be the people doing the teaching with higher education degrees don't have.

One thing is for sure, I would be an idiot to expect a child to solve pedagogy for her or his self. When children fall behind they give up, they don't contemplate the philosophy of how they learn.

Looking at the original PIAAC data source (https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/piaac/skillsmap/), it looks like the level one or below counties are pretty strongly correlated with proximity to the southern border... How many of those people were educated in the US system, or are eligible to vote?

Also, in the future maybe submit the primary data source, rather than a Wikipedia link that cites a Forbes article?

I'll never forget the time a few years ago when I was on a support call with a client who happened to be a member of the administration staff at one of the largest school districts in the US. After about 20 minutes of frustration, I realized that the problem was that she couldn't read, and she was trying not to admit it. I got the hint and figured out a different way to solve the issue. I looked through her files and sure enough her signature was literally an illegible scribble with a smiley face.

And this was a member of the staff. In a school district! Blew my mind.

Relevant classic from 2009: https://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/07/stupider-than-you-rea...

This seems false. The linked article that Wikipedia cites Forbes attributes that claim to the Department of Education, but doesn’t point to a specific report. The linked article does talk about a specific reading comprehension test called the PIACC, but that’s not the same as reading levels.

In California, <50% of 8th graders meet the state's standard for 8th grade literacy.[0]

Many schools in Califonia use an unproven/inferior method/curriculum for teaching literacy, based on the work of F&P.[1]

[0] https://caaspp-elpac.cde.ca.gov/caaspp/DashViewReport?ps=tru...

[1] https://www.apmreports.org/story/2021/11/19/fountas-pinnell-...

Why would anybody be surprised by this? Look around. People, by and large, are not very capable to begin with, poorly educated, and disinterested.

In an earlier age, it was common for newspapers to target a 7th grade reading level.

Dont feel too bad. The UK state school system is similarly bad. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/mar/03/literacy-w...

There's a strange circularity to the title.

It's almost like saying "90% of Americans have below median literacy skills." In that one it is obviously false, since we define median as being at 50-percentile.

But this is not a lot different. To me "6th grade reading level" should mean "the reading skills of a 50-percentile 6th grader." But then the statement can't be true, unless you accept that the typical 6th grader is just as good at reading as a typical adult.

So.... how do you define "6th-grade reading level"? It seems that you are left with defining it as what you might wish it were. Which is going to vary widely.

Most years I read 50+ books a year.

2021 and 2020? Maybe 10 total.

Part of it is I just don't know what to read lately! I look at lists of books and cannot decide! I wish there was a place I could go and find recommendations by authors I admire.

The other part? No bars or coffee shops! I love the bustle of a crowded room full of people. If I get bored with the book, I can order another beer, or eavesdrop on a nearby conversation. Covid has taken that away, and I am trapped in my distraction filled room!

I guess there is a THIRD reason: I've been learning guitar for the past year, and that has eaten up a lot of my time.

This is why Literacy-as-a-Service startups continue to find success.

It's interesting that one of the richest countries on earth has such low education standards

The citation for that statistic is from a Forbes article that itself doesn’t actually cite a source beyond stating “According to the U.S. Department of Education.”

MONSIEUR JOURDAIN: Well, what do you know about that! These forty years now I’ve been speaking in prose without knowing it!

... but high levels of poetry, right ?

Based on the level of reading and writing comprehension in the average HN thread, I would say we should practice more humility than I'm seeing in this thread so far.

Well that would certainly explain the meme culture.

Wikipedia happily reports that North Korea has a 100% adult proficient literacy rate. Cuba has a 99.9% rate. Brazil 98%, all leaps and bounds beyond any western country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_...

The US is certainly behind much of the world in education, but these metrics are really hard gauge accurately. Diving in to where these numbers come from and how they compare to the rest of the world, I'm finding that no one tracks this in any way that we can really draw a conclusion across countries.

I also see other commentors jumping to trashing schools or the education system for this. Does a flat number really point to education? What about poverty levels, general cultural attitudes towards literacy, accounting and definition of proficiency, etc.

I have no numbers to back this, but I felt growing up that the biggest problem with education was not the schools or education system, but the students and the general culture around education. Students and their parents just did not care at all about education, most (adult and kid) were actively hostile towards it. There is only so much an education system can do if 1/3 to 1/2 of the students will do absolutely everything they can to not learn, and their parents encourage them not to learn.

Some completely anecdotal examples from my childhood: - In high school I had a friend who's dad flew into a rage when he suggested he wanted to try going to college, because college was the devil (it'll turn you into a liberal sissy, they just steel your money, James down the street fixes motorcycles and don't need no degree, you think you're soooo much better than us, etc.). This attitude was only slightly more extreme than most in the town. And it didn't just apply to college, it applied to anyone who wanted to do any kind of academic learning.

- I have distinct memories of being ridiculed by multiple full-grown adults (!!) when my parents took me to math competitions, for being a loser nerd. Some were serious and meant it, others maybe weren't serious but thought it was funny to ridicule.

- I remember bringing a book to read while my mom worked, when I was 8 years old, and having someone (again, a full grown adult) who told me to stop reading in public because it might get me beat up.

- At school in general, many students never got punished by their parents for skipping school or failing. The school would bend over backward trying to help them in every way reasonable, but what do you do if half your students do everything they can to not learn? Threaten to punish with suspension? Many parents treated it as "who cares, school is dumb anyways".

No amount of effort into the education system could solve what I grew up around, it's a lot more insidious. Maybe I'm from a uniquely shitty part of the country tho, maybe most of the US would benefit from more focus on the education system itself, I wouldn't know. But I feel like I hear similar stories from others who grew up around the decaying rust belt, the collapsing small towns that scattered around the midwest, and inner city schools in places like Kansas City and OKC.

It's hard to tell from Wikipedia what the 6th-grade reading level is and how its measured. Google points me to Flesch Reading Ease. Not a very precise formula...

If I remember correctly, the NYTimes is written for the 8th-grade level. Similarly, many hospitals/healthcare facilities don't allow writing above the 8th-grade level. So, expressive, detailed, and stylized writing are all easily possible at the 8th-grade level. In fact, I probably write at the 8th-grade level, albeit less clearly.

What's the gap between an 8th grade reader and a 6th grade reader?

Most of my professional life involved continually being surprised how little most people actually read.

And they vote. Go figure. Maybe schools should teach literacy skills and other useful subjects. Just a thought.

Honestly does the average reader here know the word "prose"?

The English language is very difficult to read and write because its sounds have only a vaguely poetic relationship to their various representations on paper. For historical reasons it's a language that not only borrowed 95% of its words, it will borrow another at the drop of a hat, and in its American form will insist that the proper way to both pronounce and spell that word is the way it was pronounced and spelled in the language it was borrowed from (if they use a Roman alphabet.)

All the talk in this thread casting the blame on "standards" being lowered is bizarre. I'm not sure how pushing more poor kids to drop out is going to make people more literate.

edit: the real shame comparatively should be how high Chinese literacy is when faced with an equally difficult writing system. China isn't at all confused about whether public education is a good thing, though, so you'd expect superior outcomes there.